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Old 01-06-2009, 11:28 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Denny, there's no question that you have a ton of experience and I fully understand what you're saying. I think the key is "well trained dog". Pointers that can do what you describe like Jim's dog and several others (dogs) have a LOT of time put into them and have had a LOT of birds shot over them. I suspect Jim's and your definition of a "well trained dog" and the average hunters (definition) are two completely different animals.

I still disagree to some point though that even a well trained dog WILL bump birds if they're out beyond gun range. Reason being is simple. The birds hear the dog that's out that far and they get out of dodge. Whereas in some situations - IF the dogs are in close enough that same bird may not hear the close ranging dogs and the hunters until it's too late. We can agree to just disagree here. Although I have not hunted wild birds recently due to my wrestlers, I suspect things haven't changed. I have a LOT of years hunting wild pheasants and probably had over 500-600 birds brought to hand from my first Lab. (Not all my birds btw - lol!) I'm not bragging, I'm just trying to give you an idea that I'm not some amateur here - lol! These are simply the conclusions I've drawn from my experiences. They may not be right, but they're my opinion and I honestly don't think there's a right or wrong answer here.

I also understand it's not all about the meat either. Why else would I tell Dan the advice I gave him? It's ALL about watching the dog perform and that's why I think IF you're going to run both flushers and pointers together on pheasants, everybody is happy if you keep them in close. And, ultimately you WILL put more birds in the bag by doing so. I'm not going to lie, I LIKE pheasant! At least that's been my experience with larger groups of hunters over wild birds. Now, if you're a guide and you have paying clients that's a different story. You probably want the Pointers locking the birds down for your clients and give them time to prepare vs. a retriever flushing the bird w/o much notice. Granted, they usually give PLENTY of notice if you know what to look for, but I could see clients not knowing how to read an individual dog.

Now, I have hunted over some far ranging English Setters (we left the Labs at home) over wild birds and these dogs were exceptional. They had the ability to swing around out far and either push birds back our direction and/or keep them from running. But, most of the time by the time we'd get to them, the bird would relocate several times and/or flush wildly as they'd get nervous. We'd also see dozens upon dozens of birds flushing wildly hundreds of yards ahead of us. Would these birds run and flush wildly anyway IF we kept all the dogs in close? Who knows???

JMO...
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:34 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default I'm in!!!

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I think you two guys should have a wrestle off, and the loser gives up wrestling!
Can I get in on this action?
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:50 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Not trying to be snobbish?

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Originally Posted by Denny
[F]ar ranging dogs don't bump more wild birds. Poorly trained dogs bump more birds... [S]ave some money and go to the pound. You can teach a mutt to roust up birds under your feet... Go to the store and buy them already cleaned and dressed it will be cheaper in the long run. I'm not trying to be snobish [sic.],..
Not trying to be "snobish"???

Nah, that didn't come across as snobbish at all.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:07 PM   #24 (permalink)
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FishEnthusiast, I'll go takedowns with anybody for 30 seconds. After that, I can't guarantee I won't PUKE on you - lol! I've got an 18'X16' wrestling room in my basement - wall pads and all, c'mon out for a puke-fest - lol! (Heck, my kids use it MORE to play games on and hang out more than they do actual wrestling on - lol!)
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Old 01-06-2009, 04:45 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
I know I'm going to get some flames on this one, but what the heck.
Jim knows me a little so understand I'm not blowing smoke.
FishArt NO, far ranging dogs don't bump more wild birds. Poorly trained dogs bump more birds. Distance has no impact on it. If a dog is trained and brought up on liberated birds then subjected to Wild birds, there is a tendency to crowd the birds thinking they can get that close and that bumping as you refer will happen. A smart dog takes just a couple of times and they get it right. If you as the handler continue to shoot at the birds that the dog has crowded (because the bird is the most important thing, NOT) the dog will continue to crowd them. He doesn't know he did anything wrong. On the other hand if you do not shoot the crowded bird and let it fly the dog will get the idea. (Hey I can't push the birds to get one in my mouth). If just going out and getting some birds and not worrying about what the dog is doing, save some money and go to the pound. You can teach a mutt to roust up birds under your feet. If you appreciate the dog work and what can be accomplished by a well trained dog, you have to pass up the shot sometimes to keep the dog in line. If birds are what it's about?? Go to the store and buy them already cleaned and dressed it will be cheaper in the long run. I'm not trying to be snobish, but I guess I look at the whole training aspect in a different light.
I run Brittany's yep Field Trial Dogs too. They hunt at Gun Range out to 300- 400 yds. No they don't continuely crowd and BUMP birds. They are trained not too. They are pointing dogs and that is what they are bred to do. If I wanted a flusher I would have gone that route. But they allow me to walk along pretty much unloaded and have helped me develop young hunters by pointing and hold birds so that the young shooters could set up properly to develop good shooting skills. Just wanted to throw out a different aspect to the thread. Nothing negative intended. I work hundreds of birds over my dogs, but shoot very few. Have a good late hunting season to all.
I have my Kevlar on so let the darts fly.. Just kidding. Jim, I'm glad you like your young pup. Maybe we'll get out hunting sometime down the road.
Denny
I dont have a problem with anything you have said. The dog has to figure out on its own that it cannot crowd birds.

Me
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Old 01-06-2009, 06:01 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I know Denny enough to trust everything he says, and no reason not to.

He has introduced me to volunteering time to offer opportunities to our youth and keep them coming into the upland sport. Those that will support our passion for a long time if we guide them along and keep them interested.

He has also introduced me to taking time to take a stand in support of not losing our pheasant programs on our state lands by speaking out at Illinois State Budget Hearings.

In no way did Denny find the words to tell me what a good feeling it was going to be walking away from both!

You let me down there Denny!

Denny is doing good things for all of us all the time! We just don't all know it, or maybe didn't.

I'll bet Denny would even agree a real well trained pointer will even circle around a running bird, then push it back to a hunter, and not push enough to flush it out of range. I've seen it!

If Denny says he's not trying to be snobish, then he's not. He's in a class few of us ever will be. Running brits on horseback is something few to none of us will ever do. Hat's off to you, and I would be honored to hunt with you any time. But ain't got no horse or trailer!

Learn from him is what I say. Cully, last time out I saw plenty of birds flush too far away for a shot. Enough that with your dead eye you could have doubled your kill number. A well trained flusher will whoa, and not run in and flush a bird from under a pointer as well. Oh, and I know they call Mokka a pointer, but he does retrieve remember? We and our dogs always have room for improvement and can hunt better! My pointer failed to honor a rock solid point by Michigander's English, and even flushed the bird on Bob by the end of the day. (I'll talk to ya about why next time we are out. ) We have plenty of room to improve how our dogs hunt together buddy! You did say clean fields next year, right, or at least not miss putting every bird in it up, right!

All of our experiences are different, as are our opinions, because of them. Never done learning though.

There is one comment that I picked up on, that had to do with "not taking the shot when the dog's in the wrong" that tells me for sure you're not "smoke" Denny! Right on! I can improve there. Some times that's a hard one for me, a place I can improve and then my dogs will automatically improve! Like letting the launcher go on just a move of a foot! It's got to be the same without the launcher!
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Old 01-06-2009, 08:00 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Jim I don't know how to explain it to everyone unless they have had the luck of being there. I put in a ton of time on my dogs. What I think of my dogs doing right versus what they do compared to a standard I have set it's kind of hard to explain.
See Pointing Dog Field Trialing is a game nothing more. But what we demand of the dogs as they get in to adulthood is alot. NO, I don't hunt off horseback here in the midwest. Against the rules. Give ya all a tid bit. Jim helped me out with the IDNR Youth Hunt this year up at Chain O' Lakes SP. I didn't really think he knew what he was in for so I am graitful for your support Jim. It's a whole program of hunting lead ups that go into it. Some of you have probably taken your kids through it. If not your missing a good time. We we try to do some demo's of depicting different breeds of dogs working for birds before we all go out. We worked some Labs, (tough to do in a canned presentation with birds.) We did on demo with one of my young brits and Jim's GSP. What I did was put my dog on point while everyone was filtering out. All the while Guff was standing on point while all the folks settled in. Then I focused my presentation towards him. Standing 30 yards down the hill. I explained this is what very often could happen with a dog while out hunting. He could be gone for a time and you come by him standing on point. Jim brought his dog Moka in for a back and we let a young shooter try to knock down the bird when it was flushed. Guess what they missed. Hey I guess they call it hunting. The point I am getting at is it didn't matter if the kid hit the bird or not Guff stood through the flush and shot and watched it fly away. He'll get another one in his mouth another day. It's kind of like creating the perfect dance or presentation between you and the dog and it all flowing and jsut going great. I guess I am a snob. My aim is to win the American Brittany Club National Gun Championship. I got Guff qualified and ran last year as a three year old. So he is just on the cusp of getting it right. Maybe next year. Or the year after or the year after that. I know many of you would think my dog was on drugs if you saw him run. But, It's good Meds. No High like it. Ih Yeah Jim I forgot to tell you how good you'd feel after coming out of the Town Hall meeting after you spilled yourself out to the State Reps. that nite. Good Job.
Denny
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Old 01-06-2009, 08:35 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Actually, You talked me into helping last year as my son was hunting, we took a group of three kids with us, I came back this year and ran my dog for the kids even though my son was too old to come with! Thanks for having me back.

It felt just as good seeing other's kids enjoy watching the dog and hunting. My dog gave the two young girls plenty of opportunities and I know for sure one of the two will be back for sure! She had a gas and never stopped smiling We hunted from @8:30 or 9:00 until 3:00 when I had to leave, with only a short break for a drink and snack and a bathroom stop. That girl would have kept on going too.

I'll be back, maybe with two dogs? It alays feels good to give back something to this sport!



Dan, I know of a place to get you Mya and Fishart and his dog out in the field together now that we know they are from the same breeder.
Speak to me guys, your both on my list, just haven't worked your dogs together?
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:15 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default here we go

Jim,
That would be pretty sweet to work Mya with Ruby. Here dad is a pheasant guide dog up in Northern WIS. I'm trying to get up there one of these days to work her along side him too.
I'm good almost all weekends..I just need about a weeks notice to let the wife know. She went to the hunt tests with me last Fall, so she is very understanding and has really started to understand my passion for hunting with my pooch. So let YOU let me know when we are heading out brotha...
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default It's called sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Captain Jim
I know Denny enough to trust everything he says, and no reason not to. If Denny says he's not trying to be snobish, then he's not.
Just busting Denny's chops a little bit, 'cause last year he called himself a snob when he commented about the uneasy feeling he gets when he reads the posts from hunting outings. Notice, I don't dispute a word he says about training dogs. But, come on... let's face it. He's a snob. (Perhaps I didn't use the appropriate amount of winking icons in the last post to denote that sarcasm was being employed, but I thought it was self evident).

Here's a link from last year's post for your viewing pleasure. https://www.chicagolandfishing.com/forum ... sc&start=0
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