waaa waaa...

let me get this straight....humans exterminate a NATIVE species like a wolf, then re-introduce it, and now some hunter is crying because nature took it's course? Sounds hypocritical to me. Hunting predators is and should be a dangerous sport. Sometimes you get the bear (or wolf) sometimes the wolf get's you. If a hunter wants a completely clean and safe hunt, then spend the money on a canned hunt and go shoot a caged animal...then again, that's not really hunting is it.

yeah, it's sad he lost his dog, but he bred those dogs to hunt bears. It should be expected that sooner or later those dogs would get hurt or killed. whether it was by a cougar, a wolf or a bear. that's the way it goes.

 

Black and White again eh MuskyStalker??? Have you learned ANYTHING since 4th grade??? Still sore from watching Bambi decades ago?

Obviously, we erradicated the wolf. But you don't reintroduce an animal into an environment that has been altered because of this a century or more later! With exponetially more humans in that environment than there were when they were erradicated! You're OBVIOUISLY going to run into problems. Toss in the fact that because they're protected, once their numbers are too numerous they can't legally be hunted. How is the population going to be controlled "oh wise one"??? The reason that wolves have been introduced back into many of these areas is because local politicians pushed for this to gain votes from their bunny hugger constituents. Against many DNR's recommendations.

I give up with you MuskyStalker. I'm tired of having to explain the history of the world just to bring you up to speed with the rest of the world. I suggest renting and watching "Lion King" so you can begin to understand the great circle of life and the delicate balance of nature and how things really work. At least that would be a start. Good luck in your endeavors. I will no longer respond to your foolish comments. So, if you wish to get the last word in, be my guest...

 

you are so easy to twist your panties in a bundle. I can see you now, all red faced and sniffling. It's funny and sad at the same time.

 

Ahhhhh, I see Musky Stalker. You get into all these silly arguments with people just to get under their skin eh? That's pretty good. You got me. I kNEW nobody could actually be as ignorant and stupid as you've been playing. You're good!!! I've officially been duped!!!

 

Fish art just dont start on the Feral Cats Musky stalker might go over the edge

As I try to eradicate as many as I see there a MENACE to the outdoor world, In fact they are the Big head carp of land :lol:

 

You are SO right Simba! After all, cats and coyotes and wolves are so much cuter and cuddlier than a Big-Head carp or a goby! If you talk to most any Canadian farmer, they consider their wolves the gobies of Canada! But I don't need to tell YOU this.

Sometimes I wonder if Musky Stalker is indeed a member of P-E-T-A, just baiting me. Infiltrating our world and pretending to be one of us. If you think about it, his views and their's aren't all that different. Except for the hooking a fish thing (which P-E-T-A playmates perceive as inhumane), I see no difference...

 

Ok I have agood one :lol: Fish art why dont you and I start to get rid of all the Muskies with a big time Video of our Catch and Eat program :lol:

You did see the move " The Great Outdoors "right? so you can see how big those fish get so its not safe to be in the water :lol:

Just imagine some innocent little dog falling off a pontoon party boat and getting swallowed whole by a big pike, Oh the outrage it would cause :lol:

we could work on law makers to make these fish a Menace

 

There were reports of wolves before they reintroduced them, but they ignored them because if there were wolves they couldn't have released the new wolves. They have also reintroduced wolves in North Carolina. I'm not against this, but these animals are treated as some sacred cow that can never be hunted and managed appropriately. Of course, the tree hugging definition of appropriate is to eliminate man.

I would not doubt that some fraction of the P*TA crowd hoped it would decimate the deer and elk populations. This wacko segment that incudes most of the leaders have the ultimate goal of eliminate hunting and fishing. No game. No hunters. They really could care less about the animals because of their blind hatred of people.

Mother nature does not control animals in a humane manner. Her method of checks and balance is starvation and disease. There was no utopian balance before man came along, but even if there was it's gone. I think us humans are here to stay.

We have the same problem with the coyotes. How many dogs and cats are eaten in Chicagoland every day?

 

how can you take mushy stalker seriously, he can't even cough up the $ to be a clf sponsor!

 

the spinner man makes sense here. And no, I'm definately not a P*ta supporter. While I do not condone animal mistreatment, they are a bunch of whackjobs. What some of you don't realize, is there is an equal number of "shootanything that moves" whackjobs too, and so, there will always be a P*ta. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

I am not going to speak on the situation out west, have no experience there.

But I will say a few things....If you breed dogs to hunt big game predators, do NOT come online with your messed up dog and cry to me about it. If you cared so much about dogs you wouldn't put them into a dangerous situation like that.

Your statement of how wolves have no fear of man is simply not accurate. I have spent countless weeks and time up north over my entire life(NW Ontario, NE Minn, All over Wi). I have barely ever seen a Wolf, never met anyone who has been attacked by one, never heard of anyone being attacked by one (this story doesnt count, if the wolf wanted him he would have had him). I have heard stories of guys out hunting who have a wolf run up on them, and try to spin a tale of terror just because they didn't go sprinting away in a hurry. Is that an attack? no

The stuff with livestock and dogs is what it is, and certainly there are areas where Wolves do not belong in. If that thing about putting them in North Carolina is true, there's a great example. In areas where there numbers need to be kept in check I am all for thinning, but not eradicating.

If you are really passionate about protecting livestock, I can understand your opinion. But somehow, I don't think that is the case...If you are trying to claim wolves pose a threat to attacking human beings, please back up your statements with proof rather then statements with no fact basis. I have many friends who are hunters in rugged areas of Northern Ontario with some of the highest wolf populations and comparing them to a cougar is a big stretch. In fact, they will tell you the one animal you don't want to run into is walking up on a Big Bull Moose. SHould we start whacking all of them too??

 

Your statement of how wolves have no fear of man is simply not accurate.

When wolves' populations exceed their habitat's ability to support them, they sure as heck DO lose their fear of man! Much like the Coyotes do.

And just because your buddy's never see them, doesn't mean they're not there! They're pretty smart animals. Ask any hunter who hunts either and they'll let you know how smart they are. Heck, I go three days during deer season sometimes w/o seeing a deer and I KNOW there are plenty of them in the area. And deer are nowhere near as intelligent as a wolf or coyote.

There's plenty of information on the internet of wolve's attacking pets and also the occasional human. They prefer NOT to mess with humans, but put yourself in-between a fresh kill and see what happens. I'm SURE there's more human encounters than cougars simply because of their sheer numbers. I just don't have time to surf the internet for you MT, but I'm sure the info is there.

I'm also NOT saying to eradicate them. But, you simply don't re-introduce a species into an area that hasn't had that species for a hundred years! It just isn't mean't to be. If it were, they would have eventually spread their range into these areas naturally. The numbers up north certainly are high enough to do so. It's just not mean't to be...

 

I'm just saying this....I would like to hear FACTS on the internet instead of some of this paranoia nonsense I am starting to hear on some of these websites from guys who have no experience out in the woods whatsoever.
The guys aren't just my "buddies" I was epaking of above, every single establishment I have ever stayed at in Canada and Minn was outfitted for hunting as well as fishing, and believe me, these guys are not fans of Wolves and many of them would love to whack away at them at will. But the bottom line is the next guy who tells me they are posing a threat to humans will be the first one, And I trust my personal experiences as well as people I have met over my years rather then factless paranoia over the internet. That's all I am saying...

 

Sucks what happened to the dog, but it's the nature of the beast. Hunted hogs with dogs in South Carolina and Florida plenty of times, stitched more than a few up and even buried a couple after hunts. If you wanna play you might just have to pay, may sound cold but that's life. This whiner should know that and accept it if he's as into dog hunting as he claims to be. As for the wolves, they're majestic animals which I believe would have adequately retaken a good portion of their previous range naturally in time. Let's be real, unless they pick up a young kid they're no threat to humans and that has nothing to do with losing their fear, they're opportunistic like all other predators and I think they'd be hard pressed to go after a healthy adult.

 

Way back when there was a hunting season on the grey wolf , we hunted them until near extinction ,which the feds decided to step in and not have the Passenger Pigieon Issue pop up ( There extinct now) as we killed Millions,

so we also have the endangered Yellowstone Buffalo as the Cattle ranchers are saying that they are carring Brusallosis which is deadly to cows, Know we all know the Cattle market right? the ranches kill them immediatly when they leave the park Interesting Huh.

So If we want to have another extinct animal Fine with me ,and yes they should be managed, They reintroduced the Wolf to North Caralina because the Deer are starting to grow in large numbers out there, and the Wolf is there only Predetor. we sure cant kill them to a manegable state, Heck Illinois, Wisconsin and Iowa all have deer problems we should intrduce the Wolf to those states.

But we people (outdoorsman) know the risks everytime we go to the field, woods, and the water
and all the dangers that surround it, with our dogs, family members, Boats etc

But remember this about dogs they are pack animals, wolves, coyotes, coydogs, will wreack havoc in numbers and yes they need to be controlled

 

In time JP - lol!!! It's been a hundred years!!! How much MORE time do you want to give them???

And the big difference here is THEY CAN'T BE HUNTED. I don't know if you do any hunting outside of bird hunting. But most any animal I've hunted learns REALLY quickly that they're being hunted. And they really fear humans. Whereas these wolves (I'm sure) have encountered humans many times and have never been given a reason to fear them. At least their naturally born fear is subsiding through these encounters. Much like the California Cougars. They become bolder and bolder as their food supply and territory deminishes.

"Majestic Animal"? The Asian Carp is "majestic" to the Chinese! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And besides, looks should have nothing to do with whether or not an animal is re-introduced into an area. It's either going to co-exist or it's going to upset the balance of nature. I'm 100% positive it will be the latter in most cases. Toss in more future encounters with humans GUARANTEED as their numbers increase and I'm still scratching my head along with the poor DNR folks that have to attempt to manage this snafu...

 

Fishart, getting a little worked up on this one? I was with ya until I get slammed.

I say give them as much time as needed, either they'll come back or they won't, I just believe they would have without help. But alas that was my way of agreeing with you that they shouldn't have been reintroduced, I believe nature would have RE-taken it's course eventually.

Kind of a slam about bird hunting too after I stated I've hunted with dogs (since I was around 10) for HOGS, that would be FERAL, RUSSIAN, and REAL LIVE RAZORBACKS! Even done some deer hunting down south with them, along with a lot of bird hunting. I can probably say without hesitation that I've killed more north american big game critters than most on this board. Not really wanting a lecture on K9's, or hunting at this point.

As for majestic, hell yes they are IN MY EYES. Any predator high on the food chain and intelligent is majestic in my eyes and appreciated by me but still put in perspective.

I didn't say they're not losing fear either, just that I personally don't see humans being attacked as a result of their lack of fear.

Dang, you just shot down one of the guys backing you on this one, then I wonder why I don't post too often anymore.

Anyone but me realize too that the DNR of whatever state involved didn't do this, our predecessors did by ERADICATING THEM TO BEGIN WITH.

Sorry I even got voiced an opinion, won't happen again.

 

JP

:lol: 1 1 1 1

 

LOL, Like I said, factless internet paranoia is the name of the game these days. Nowadays Suburban Chicago Taxidermists are experts on the habits of the Candian Timber Wolf

 

JP - My bad. I certainly didn't mean to come across the way it was taken. ME missing the fact that YOU (and not friends) hunt big game, is what caused all the confusion on my end. I read right past it. But now that you have clarified your position, I believe we are indeed in agreement on most issues. It all comes down to ME missing the statement that you hunt big game. It wasn't a slam to bird hunters either, it's just that IF you hunt big game, then you have some experience in what we're talking about. It carries more weight when somebody actually has experience in a matter vs. something they've read.

Yeah, I'm getting a little worked up over this. (It's probably time to bow out and get to work eh - lol!) But, I don't see anything in my above post that I would consider a "slam" though. (Heck, I like you - lol!) I just was simply disagreeing with a couple of things (I thought) you said. It was not mean't to be a slam. I debate/argue all the time with my close friends and none of us takes things personally. But again, I apologize if I came across that way...

 

Now MT - even though I'm a lowly taxidermist, even I recognize THAT was a SLAM - lol!

I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but just so you're clear that I'm not the typical stereotype that's associated with what most perceive taxidermists to be.

After graduating from Cornell College in '85 with a BA in Art and Education and a minor in Business Econ, I ended up a manager of the Design and Drafting department for a large Nuclear Engineering Firm. Spent 14 years there managing multi-million dollar projects before the mass lay offs hit. Got a decent severence package and decided to pursue my interest in Fish Taxidermy. I then sought out professional training from one of the best in the business while I decided what I wanted to be when I grew up. I built the business from nothing to fulltime+ in under 5 years. Which is almost unheard of in this business. Fyi, it typically takes many years to build the clientelle to achieve full time status in the taxidermy field.

Again, don't take this the wrong way. I just wanted to make sure you were aware that I have experienced a lot beyond taxidermy.

However, you'd be surprised at how much many taxidermists DO know about wildlife and their habits. At least the successful, full service guys HAVE to know a lot about wildlife. Not only from an artistic standpoint, but from a business standpoint as well. They HAVE to keep up on the rules and regs and everything else associated with wildlife as they have a vested interest in maintaining their livelihood. So, even the "country-bumpkin-taxidermists know quite a bit more than most would think when it comes to wildlife...

 

My Grandfather said to me when the DNR in Michigan and Wisc. planned the release of the 1st wolf pack in the Boulder Junc. area.....

"I can't believe they paid me to get rid of them in the 30's and 40's and now they plan to release them at $10,000 per head.....they are plain daffy....."

He then said the words that are coming true now in the UP......

"They will survive in great numbers because we have too many deer in this area.....they will have giant litters with large numbers surviving to adulthood because of all the food and lack of preditors (humans)....once they clean out the deer, which they will, they will starve and they will become very brave and enter the towns and clean out any animal living outside then they will kill a kid."

The deer numbers are down......pets are being attacked......whats next?

My Grandpa just gets smarter every day to me.....

It used to be a real feat to trap a coyote in that area....not so anymore.....there are no coyotes or foxes....or very few.....and the wolves are not rare to see anymore either....they have to search wider areas for food and are in contact with populated areas....

He also told me "maybe they will hire you to get rid of them again...."

I up for it Gramps....got any traps left?

uplandk9

 

North Carolina Red Wolf

 

Ironically UplandK9 I know a taxidemist in the area you''re speaking about. The guy took Best in World with a fish many years back. He's been complaining of the exact same things your grandfather speaks of for the last several years now. Last I heard, he was down to taking in 6-8 deer a year (when he was taking in over a hundred deer decades ago). If that wasn't bad enough, he contends the Indians have been netting and harvesting most of the fish in the area also. After 30 years in the business and oozing with talent, he is now belly up and looking to relocate. As have most businesses and people in that area. Hunting and Fishing drove their economy. And because now there's no wildlife around, his acreage isn't worth a whole heck of a lot anymore either...

 

Interesting and informative read Spinnerman. Sounds like the USFWS folks have quite a bit of work ahead of them. After reading this, I could only wonder how much money they're spending on all these efforts that could be better spent elsewhere...